Scene #3717: On Moral Obligations

Owner	Pose
Staren	Anyone who happens to be watching outside Twilight's front door, sees the distinct red-and-white beam of light hit the ground then rapidly collapse into a humanoid shape before fading into Staren. As usual for the winter, he's wearing his Assassin-style cloak, and a long sea-green scarf marked with the logo or at least name of the Gatecrashers' Union. He knocks, waits expectantly, and when Twilight comes to the door, gives her a long hug! After letting go, he smiles, "It's always good to see you! But I've had a couple of things on my mind lately that I think it would really help to talk to you about, too."
Twilight Sparkle	Twilight opens the door almost immediately, since she was expecting Staren. She returns his hug, rearing up so she can hug him properly. "It is good to see you too, Staren! Please, come in." she says. She closes the door after Staren, then smiles. "So, what is it you need to talk about? Morals, obviously, but what brought on this need to talk?" she says as she moves to take a seat on the couch.
Staren	Staren takes a seat on the couch next to her and turns to face her. "Well..." he fidgets with his hands for a moment, "Actually, it's something Ren said. Although I'd heard the same thing countless times before, the /way/ he said it hit me. Something about how not everyone can so readily adapt to the Multiverse, to new things. So this time, I started thinking about, whether I should change my policies... not that I /have/ formal policies, but... whether I should reconsider my obligations and how to help such people. Obviously, I can't just decide to change my underlying morals, but..." he pauses briefly as he catches himself ranting. "...Well, in this case I thought about it and my moral compass points to:" he shrugs for emphasis, "'Iunno.' At least for some limited changes. Obviously I don't want to turn around and hurt them /instead/ or anything."
Twilight Sparkle	Twilight listens to Staren as she settles in against his side. "Well...if your question is, 'what should I do about these people?' I can only say what I have often said. You cannot force people to see things the way you do, and trying to force them just paints you as a dictator-type." she says, taking Staren's hand with a hoof. "Unless people are hurting other people, and the people they are hurting want help...there may not be much you can do. I know you want to save as many people as you can. I want the same thing! If I could spread friendship and harmony across the entire Multiverse, I would!" She sighs. "But...many people, especially out in the Multiverse, don't understand such things, or don't see the value in them. Or, outright hate such ideals."
Staren	Staren nods sadly, gently gripping her hoof. "It's... it's a little more complex in my mind. I... I guess I should start at the beginning. I've always had a strong sense of justice, and a love of stories, that made me... aspire to helping people, rather than just getting a cushy life. When I hear about a problem, my brain starts trying to fix it reflexively, but when I hear about /unfairness/, it /burned/, made me /have/ to do something, but as a child all I could do was throw a tantrum. Um... so, of course, you know I like understanding everything, and sooner or later, I started applying that to morality." His hand figits a bit, a finger gently stroking her fetlock. "...I wanted to make sense of it. I asked my parents, and they said the golden rule was good enough for them. Well, a version of the golden rule which takes situational differences into account. And that... anyway, it wasn't really a /satisfying/ answer. There /must/ be a moral rule somewhere, it can't just be something we make up, it feels so /important/. But I could never find it. And then I started reading about multiversal philosophers who advocated the use of technology not to augment humans into beings that can stand up to supernatural creatures, as is the common reason at home, but to /improve the human condition/. Conquering death and all that. Ideas I'd thought only myself and unhinged mad scientists and mad wizards had. These same philosophers were concerned about the dangers, too. Of things like creating thinking machines that don't understand morality. So they, too, were looking for what I was looking for, so that they could program those rules into a computer, because otherwise... well, you've seen the Multiverse. Sometimes such constructs work out well, and sometimes they don't. It would help to ensure they were good, right? Anyway, they hadn't found the rules either, but pointed out something obvious..." his other hand points to his head. "It's in here." It points to hers. "It's in there." He puts his hand down. "Encoded in brains and souls... we don't understand them, but we /feel/ them. But that doesn't make them /made up/. We can choose whether to follow our moral compass or not, but it's already there. And it's in all people, and very similar across the beings that inhabit the multiverse, whatever form they take. We don't understand the exact rules, but we /have/ values, things we care about even without thinking about it." Staren fidgets a bit in his seat, tail twitching, ears flicking. "And that's what we all have in common. Things that /don't/ have that -- vicious animals, some monsters, cosmic horrors and the like -- we can't even /talk/ morality into. Someone like us goes bad, they have that compass and you can try to convince them to follow it -- but these beings, they can't understand it. You're talking to them about something they have no concept of. And that's why they're such a danger, and many are impossible to form any beneficial relationship with. That's why they have to be destroyed, just as /they/ are convinced that people must be killed for the sake of their goals and that's a meaningless thing to them, not something they're /capable/ of caring about." %
Staren	r Staren looks away. "So, that's where my morality was for a long time. We're following this value-set, fighting for survival against other value-sets and it doesn't matter to the universe but it matters to us because it's just part of us, and that's okay." He looks back at her. "But obviously, people differ somewhat. We don't /all/ have the same values, exactly, though we have a /lot/ in common. You go around deciding only your own /exact/ values are perfect and destroy everything else, you're left with just you, and leave a lot of your own values unsatisfied. So, people with enough things in common have to value tolerance and variety, so they can work together, help eachother, strengthen eachother against everything that threatens to destroy what they value or to destroy them directly -- villains and monsters. So, meta-meta-morality. I've thought about this a lot." "...And that brings me to the terms I'm thinking in now. I value peoples' welfare. I value them being able to /care/ about stuff rather than being 100% occupied with just trying to survive or running for their life. I share a lot of values with a lot of people. But these people who don't 'get' the Multiverse... are they fundamentally different? Enough that I can care about them less? Or is it just that I sit here, frustrated, unable to figure out /how/ to make them see because I'm bad at talking and persuading, and it's not that I can care about them any less, but that I have no choice but to care and watch them be hurt and do nothing?"
Twilight Sparkle	Staren talks, and Twilight listens patiently with a gentle smile on her face. She smiles as she hears that there are philosophers in Staren's world that think like he does. She nods in agreement when he talks about destruction as a solution, and again as he speaks about tolerance -- one of Twilight's main tenants. When he reaches the main point, the people who don't get the Multiverse and how he should treat them, she blinks. "I..." She pauses a moment, then considers. "..well, you can't care about someone less just because they are different. It sounds like you are trying to rationalize a way to use the destruction or indoctrination methods. But, you can't. All you can do is present your view on things, offer supporting evidence for why you view things that way, and hope they accept your view." She gives Staren's hand a squeeze with her foreleg. "Figuring out how to make someone see things your way is never easy, and in truth it may never happen." She smiles gently, then gives Staren a little nuzzle. "You never have no choice, but sometimes choosing not to interfere is the best way you can help. And, to go back to your other point, I don't think those cosmic horrors as you call them have no moral code, they just have one that is so vastly different that it seems like a lack of morals to us. I mean...in Equestria, even the insects are treated with respect. In other worlds, insects are merely pests to be eliminated if they trespass on or in a person's home. Here, we call a pony to relocate insects or other creatures that make a home of our home when we don't want them. That does not mean that other worlds are full of evil people because they kill insects. It merely means they have a different view on the world than we ponies do. I can and do try to convince them otherwise, but ultimately it is their world, with creatures different from here." She gives Staren a squeeze. "I am not saying do not try to stop cosmic horrors from hurting people, but worlds where people are hurting other people, it is the people of that world that must want to stop the violence. Otherwise, neither side will be grateful to you for stepping in. In worlds where people are...killing each other...it is horrible, but are we to step in and make them a police state? They will tolerate that even less than the killing."
Staren	Staren's ears splay a bit and he shakes his head when she says it sounds like he's trying to rationalize destroying or indoctrinating people who don't get it. But he lets her finish, listening. He squeezes her hoof back. "I would not have gone so far against the people who don't get it. They're still people. My moral compass returns 'wrong' thinking of treating them that way. But, trying less hard to help them, feeling less obligated to persuade them to /accept/ help..." he shrugs. "As for the cosmic horrors -- that's the most accurate term, but 'unfriendly optimization process' sounds kind of abstruse -- I am not saying so much that they have no morality of their own, as they are incapable of being moved by what moves us. But... meta-meta-morality /does/ suggest working with such beings if a partnership can be established on other grounds, as long as they don't hurt people. After all, it encourages other potential allies to try the same with us rather than just kill us." He shifts and fidgets in his seat. "I'm still not sure that Equestrian animals are like animals everywhere else. Even if they are... no, that's not really the argument at hand. I just... nnngh... if I /do/ have a moral obligation to these people, then aside from saving them from physical violence and such, how far does it go? What does it mean? Maybe... maybe I should just try to make sure they have a way to the nearest warpgate. If any among them want to take advantage of the Multiverse, they can do so on their own initiative..."
Twilight Sparkle	Twilight nods as she listens, then snugs Staren again and squeezes his hand again. "We all have a moral obligation to everyone to try out best to get along and help each other. But, we also have to know when help reaches doing things for people that they should be able to do. And, I think you are right about Equestria's animals. But, more to the point, your moral obligation...while we would like to make everyone's life perfect, people have to do that for themselves. Your obligation, in my opinion, extends only to trying to ensure people are safe, not harming other people, and have the freedom to lead their own lives."
Staren	Staren listens, and nods, and then leans against her for a long moment, thinking. After a few moments, he says, "But what if they're not safe? What even counts as 'safe'? People are going to die preventable deaths... Or get sick or hurt because they insist on living in dangerous places... I suppose that's true of us running into danger, but we do it to help others and we're as careful as we can be about it. And noone /chooses/ to be born as a short-lived human instead of an elf or a dragon or something..."
Twilight Sparkle	Twilight smiles at the question. "Well, I think for your purposes you should define safe as...hmm...as...um..." Twilight scratches her head with a forehoof. "...that is a tricky one. I guess it is a balance of how immediate the threat is. If someone is in danger of being harmed within seconds or minutes, then that obviously needs immediate action. If someone is in danger of something, but that something won't strike for days to months, then that would be a call for action, but not quite as urgent. If it is a threat like sickness or injury from dangerous hobbies and occupations, then you take preventative measures such as education and vaccinations. If it is old age..." Twilight smiles gently. "...then really you shouldn't worry about that one. The Multiverse is vast, and you and others have ways to beat it. But, that is something that people must choose for themselves." "As for the rest, accidents happen, and people like to challenge themselves. I think some people like the thrill of facing death. But, that falls under the freedom to lead their own lives. If they are purposely trying to get hurt, that is something else. Or if they are unintentionally threatening something or someone, then we can step in and tell them, and even stop them. But, just because you don't think anyone should die of something curable like old age doesn't mean every one else thinks that. And that's okay. If they are at peace with dying from old age, or at their job, or something similar, then we must accept it."
Staren	Staren nods, and continues leaning against Twilight, turning his head to stare off into space thinking for a moment. "I... will try. Old habits die hard, as they say. I know people have told me this before, but... I did not think about how anyone who is interested in... curing... their ills is free to do so on their own initiative, in the Multiverse." He sighs. "On the other hand, how many people don't even realize it's possible, and would take it if they knew? Or who ignorantly fear the warpgates and don't think of the positive possibilities, but would save themselves if they only knew? H-how many more people are out there, suffering, ignorant that the answer to all the dreams they didn't dare hope for is right there... I have to help them!" He stands up, then starts pacing back and forth, holding a hand to his head. "Nnngh, but there's always more, so many, in so many endless worlds... I just... try not to think about it, but is that any excuse, it doesn't help /them/... B-being good isn't about only helping people right in front of you and pretending other problems don't exist, right?"
Twilight Sparkle	Twilight blinks as Staren hops up suddenly, and her ears splay sadly as he talks. "Of course it isn't, but...we don't have to do it alone. You don't have to save everyone by yourself, Staren. That is why we are part of the Union. Because we can't do it by ourselves. If we tried, we might fail everyone instead of saving the ones we do. Worrying about the people we can't help that we don't even know about needing help just leads us down a dark spiral of despair. We would be no help to anyone if we spiraled out of control like that. The unfortunate fact is that we cannot literally help everyone in the entire Multiverse. The people that have had the power and ambition to try that...well...their solution has been to destroy the Multiverse and remake it. That is not helping."
Staren	Staren stops. "Right, right, I'm... I'm panicking again. I-if I try to fix that, I'll go crazy, and then I can't help anyone." He sits back down and leans his head against her shoulder. "I just... Nngh. I wonder if there's any better solution than to try to stop /caring/, which is messed up, or to just try to not think about it, which is... it hits me right in that justice/unfairness-sense every time I /do/ end up thinking about it... Am I missing an obvious sensible option somewhere?"
Twilight Sparkle	Twilight nuzzles at Staren as he sits back down. "Don't stop caring, just don't allow yourself to start obsessing. Focus on the problems you can solve, and if you ever run out of those then go back to the problems you can't solve. Like a doctor or nurse after an accident, you must assess which needs are more pressing and attend to them first. And, don't forget, there are plenty of other people in the Union. If there is a situation you identify that needs attention but you can't get to it, ask someone else if they have time to check it out."
Staren	Staren smiles a little at the nuzzling. "I suppose... if everyone followed that advice, then more people would be saved overall... If I look at it that way, I'm doing my part to help everyone..." Staren sighs and leans against her, nuzzling back. "Thank you. I'm sorry that part of that was repeating old issues. I, I thought maybe I'd found an easier way to fix one of my chronic problems interacting with certain groups of people... it seems I must take the harder route, rather than trying to care less about certain cases where my moral compass was... unsure. For all I know, you may well have stopped me from making a grievous error..." he nuzzles again, then hugs and holds her close for a moment.
Twilight Sparkle	Twilight smiles happily as Staren seems to relax. She even reaches up to pet at one of his ears affetionately. "It's alright. It's practically part of my duties to help my friends with their issues. And, even moreso since you are my boyfriend." she says before nuzzling in against him. "How are things at the colony going?"
Staren	Staren smiles and relaxes more, returning the affection by gently stroking her ears and mane. "We've started mining tunnels and found an old underground lab we were able to liberate materials from as well as these bouncy-bubble shield things the inhabitants were apparently working on -- I can show you one later, they're kind of odd but potentially useful. We also tracked down some pirates who'd left space minefields in orbit and... well, made them crash and abandon ship and stole the electronic keys to let us traverse the minefields safely. They're loose somewhere on the planet now -- I think some sort of diplomatic action should be taken to encourage them not to hold a grudge if they ever get into a position to strike back at us, but I'm probably not the person for the job. ...I haven't had an opportunity to scout out a location for a personal cabin and hangar yet, though. ...Oh! But my idea for manually-controlled golem walker vehicles works! Haven't used them enough to really compare to conventional vehicles or see if they're at all the best solution, but at least they /function/."
Twilight Sparkle	Twilight's ears perk at that. "My! You have been busy!" she says happily, then relaxes against Staren again and smiles warmly. "Are you trying to make some sort of armor out of the golems, or more like a drone?" she asks before yawning softly and snuggling in against Staren, resting her head against his.
Staren	He continues stroking her mane gently. "Well, not just me, everyone has...It /has/ been a little while since we last talked this much. Um, my idea was just to get us transports we can use for exploring the area around the colony when our industrial-scale fabricators aren't up yet -- also, legged vehicles may handle any rough terrain better than wheeled ones anyway. And it's cheaper than buying a bunch of hovercycles. While they're transport for now, I /am/ trying to design them such that they can be retrofitted for security work when we're more established, whether manually or remotely controlled. ...There may be hostile wildlife, and there's evidence of a tribe of miiiiiiight-be-cannibals living some distance away." Staren winces as he admits that. "They're not an immediate concern, but it's something we'll have to deal with eventually."
Twilight Sparkle	Twilight nods as she listens, smiling softly. Until that cannibal thing, which makes her ears pin back a moment and her expression sours. "...cannibals? I can't even imagine..." She shivers. She snugs Staren again, then tries to hide a yawn. "Nnng...I am afraid I must get some sleep. You are of course welcome to stay the night." she says, snuggling up and closing her eyes as if she expects Staren will stay right there.
Staren	Staren smiles a little and nods as she says she needs to sleep... then is pleasantly surprised to see she means right there! Well, he's happy to oblige. He fishes a spare blanket out of his bag (hey, you never know when you'll find cold people or need to give some basic humanitarian aid) and pulls it over them, smiling. "Goodnight, Twilight."