Scene #621: A Philosophical Debate

Owner	Pose
Finna	Finna's already gotten a table out in a corner far from any hustle and bustle. And there is a pepperoni pizza there. the box is open and a slice is missing. Well, no, it's on Finna's plate. She's tapping her foot impatiently, but her ears are straight up and alert, and her tail's wagging. With her body straight up against the chair and an eager look in her eyes... seems she can wait.
Staren	Staren stalks out of the warpgate grumpily with his hands in his coat pockets, looking around. Frowning, he heads over to Finna's table, looks at her for a moment, then finally decides to sit down. "Alright, let's hear it."
Finna	"... oh... don't be so grouchy. You're kinda cute, so that look doesn't suit you. Have some pizza!" Finna gestures generously to the food before taking a bite of her slice. Chewing, and swallowing. But once she's swallowed, she takes in a breath. This isn't going as she imagined it, and she makes a puffy face for a moment. Nope, no use waiting for the right moment. It's not gonna happen with this scientist. So... "Haven't you figured it out yet? I wanted to apologize." Simple, direct, and no-nonsense. Her ears flatten a litle in the doing, but.. She folds her arms on the table. "And more tha that... I made a big mistake. You're right. We definitely don't agree about things, and maybe never will.. but I can't be sure yet. Because... the mistake I made? Was not even trying to understand you."
Staren	Staren just tilts his head and maintains his expression when she calls him cute, ignoring the offer of pizza. When she says she wants to apologize, he blinks and untilts his head. Just looking... confused as she continues on. Then he lifts his hands and sets them down on the table. "Alright, um... well, I guess maybe I didn't try very hard either. I expected people to offer... I expected that if they wanted to be understood, they'd volunteer information to show me how they came to their conclusions. So that even if I disagree, I can at least see the reason they used to hold their opinion. But..." he shrugs a bit. "Well, you offered your opinion of nature, focusing on a specific example, and then I offered evidence showing that the specific example did not generalize. And you said I'd 'learn' and it would be unpleasant. So we dismissed eachother. And ever since, every time this comes up... Everyone insists they /know/ the seedseers are right. They don't adress the evidence that their vaunted god is not even capable of controlling its own actions, and they just assume that one thing would work and that no other issues need to be adressed or taken care of or that it could even /possibly/ not work and they'd need a backup plan. So... what's changed? If you want to understand, what more can I give you to help?"
Finna	Finna blinks a few times, then munches down another bite. "Hrm... that's right, I did kind of blow up there." Finna's shoulders sag. Admitting her mistakes isn't so easy to do, and her lips twist around in perplexion as she thinks back on it. "I think I've got a better grasp of the matter already. You're way smarter than me, but bad with people. If that wasn't the case, you wouldn't need to be asking the Shroud-goers why they believe in the Seedseer. Think of it this way. You surely have parents, right? They provided for you, cared for you. A helpless babe who couldn't even clean up after himself. And you got bigger. Out of love, and the sake of family, and knowing nothing else - that all the good in the world exists right at home and nowhere else - you'll listen to them. Even if you're scared. Even if you /disobey,/ a part of you feels guilty about it, right? That's how the people of the Shroud see their Seedseer. They're the ultimate parent and guide. Of course everyone will trust them. It only makes sense, in their eyes." With that long speech finished, Finna exhles. "But that's just their view. It makes sense, and as I grew up in a society similar to theirs I can follow how they think and feel easily. I know it just like the back of my hand. But it's pretty different for you, isn't it? So that difference is why I wanna talk to you."
Staren	Staren listens. Admission of a mistake earns a brief quirk of one eyebrow. His expression of slight grumpiness resumes as she goes over the parent example that he already thought of. "There are many kinds of parents -- I am lucky to have loving ones. And I have secured their immortality, so that I will never need to watch them grow old and die. But for others... A time comes when the parent is no longer able to care for their child. Be it illness or mental frailty that means they are the ones who must be cared for, or values so far behind the times that they can't interact with society... At that point, the child may care for them, but that doesn't mean desperately following every whim. If gramma doesn't trust technology but can't live anymore without an oxygen purifier, are you gonna take care of her or do what she says? If they can't take care of their own life anymore, either you move in and take care of them or send them to people who can take care of them, but either way you don't have to follow their every whim, or watch their lives fall apart until they die from being unable to manage." Staren sighs and shakes his head. "I did think of that example the moment I heard of the situation. But I didn't think anyone would listen to the comparison. After all, the Shroud is more than a parent, it's... well they don't call it a god, but it seems to occupy a similar position. They see it as beyond reproach, too powerful to ever be wrong... they see it as so perfect, they ignore the evidence of its own /weakness/ before their eyes. The very fact that this happened shows it /can't/ protect them, at least not anymore. Maybe it deserves an attempt to save it all the same, but should all hopes be pinned on that while the seedseers ignore their own health, and cling to the requests that they not learn to take care of themselves when the shroud can no longer do it for them?" Slowly, he's shifted from 'grumpy' to more of an exasperated 'why can't people see this?!' mood. Progress? He also takes a slice of pizza, finally.
Finna	"Seeing people in that kind of state is a bit weird for me, I'll admit. Few people REACH that age where I'm from... if you can't breathe on your own, you die." Finna exclaims simply. "A lost arm can be gone without. Bad breathing means death. There's no machines to pump air down your throat when your body's at it's limit... well, most people where I'm from wouldn't WANT to live that way either. Among the Icewalkers, it's not uncommon for the old to just walk off into the snow when their time is up... if you can't work, you don't eat. There's only so much food to go around, so it goes to those who can keep the people going." She doesn't sound ENTIRELY happy with this arrangement, but she speaks in a tone of begrudging acceptance in any case. "That's a bit off-topic though. You're right, the Shroud is more like a god than a parent. It's one big, great living thing. An ancient forest that's stood since as far back as anyone can remember, and probably even longer. Gridania's people, though, depend on it for everything. For centuries, it's been their source of food, shelter, survival, and comfort. Did you notice, what they call Woodsin? It's the best protection they could possibly EVER have. Better than the greatest of armies or weapons, the sturdiest castle. Anything walking into that forest, that isn't welcome, will meet with disaster. How many centuries have they lived under its care, in harmony with it? But now, it's hurting. They owe it so much, and now it needs them. It's always been there for them, and now, for the first time in forever, it really, REALLY needs help. They're not ignorant of its weakness, Staren. They're scared of that weakness, and don't WANT to admit that the forest might die. The thing they put all their faith in was brought to its knees, and can't 'think' straight. But it's fine if they can just mend it, and in time, everything goes back to the old ways, right? That's how they're thinking. Hoping. If THAT is taken away from them, then they have nothing. Even if they live in body, their hearts would die with that forest. They'd feel that they've failed. Not just the forest, but themselves, and their ancestors, and their descendants to come." She folds her arms, drifting off in a moment of thought. "You've got a point though. A backup plan never hurts. Well, I wanted to know more about how you think about nature, since I found your viewpoint pretty out there! But backup plans first, sure."
Staren	Staren frowns again when she describes what happens to old people without technology. Death and senescence are terrible foes indeed. He cocks his head to the side this way and that as he listens. He wants to speak up about the woodsin, but holds his tongue to let her finish. At last, he sighs and nods. "I suppose you may have a point. I can see why they would be too scared to admit the possibility. But the fact is that it is weak. If the world hadn't unified by now, and allowed us to try and save the Shroud... then refusing to consider any alternative would be their doom. What if, centuries from now, it happens again, but by then the Multiverse has reconfigured so they're no longer near superfactions and helpful elites? Is it right for us to encourage this behavior of complete dependance on something that, clearly, cannot be depended on in times like these?" He shakes his head. "I can't support them. The Shroud doesn't just demand their aid -- it demands that they not learn how to advance and expand on their own. To do so is woodsin. That is a bargain that... I can't support them making. It's like, it's like it's keeping them as /pets/, and now they can't live without it. I don't think it's alright for people to live like that, because... well, look what happened when suddenly their master wasn't there to protect them anymore?" Staren sighs. "Backup plans... The seedseers are breathing smoke and ash. Do you know what that does to your lungs? If they don't have healing magic to reverse it, that's years or more off their lives, and years more of sickness. They should have been evacuated to safety until this was over, but I guess they'd see that as 'giving up'" he finger-quotes, "so this is one of those things where everyone else thinks that supporting existing values is more important than health or independance, so I guess we can't do that. Is there /any/ plan for if saving the Shroud doesn't work? Or will you heroes just say 'Oh well, we completely understand that you don't want to live without the shroud, so we'll just let you die here'? Have any of /you/ taken on the job of purifying the air, since the seedseers refuse to learn to change the batteries in my filters?"
Finna	"They'd be stupid to not at least look into other plans, I agree. Their own survival is important, and if they don't see that, the nation's a failure. my people specialize in the rise and fall of nations, sooooo I can say that it's a thing that happens sometimes." Not one she's happy about, but that's the way the world works. What happened to make this teenager so cynical about people in general? Yet she's still out to help them. "And if they move somewhere else, and a different disaster strikes they aren't familiar with?" She counters. "There's not much point debating the future that far ahead. ... but you're misunderstanding that bargain. If they don't want to advance to begin with, and are happy as they are, then that means you've devoted yourself to just one idea of how people can live and should live." Just one idea. The words resonate deep and hard. They burrow into the mind. Not a harsh accusation, but they echo as if... there's something wrong with it. "... I'll give you three words that I should not. Thousand Streams River. It's a word Luna's Chosen use to describe all the nations and all the peoples. Over time, one stream will dry up. Others will sprout. It goes on and on, and each time the new ones that sprout up learn from the mistakes of the old. But the river never ends, never stops improving. It represents life, and describes societies. The Shroudfolk have one way of living, and Lazlo another. In your world, the magic came all of a sudden, after it had been gone for ages." WAIT, WHEN DID SHE STUDY STAREN'S WORLD? "And after it had come and brought disaster, new nations arose that were suitable for the new environment. But what if all the magic dried up again? Would Lazlo still stand like it does? Humanity's kept going, gained new neighbors, but it continues learning and growing. But sometimes it's like a tree. The Shroud people might be growing really slowly, but you can't say they've learned nothing, never grown and never changed at all. Just not in ways you can appreciate... but maybe they do." She exhales again. "Boy I'm not used to big speeches like this." She then purses her lips. "I don't know. I've been helping them do their thing, since that's my duty as a Steward. They have their shaman, I'm simply a huntress and scout by raising, and don't have the centuries of knowledge they're built up or what the Elders of Luna's Chosen have, so it's the best I can do. But maybe I'm wrong! Maybe they're wrong. All I can do is see what comes of the efforts... but we're not gonna reach any solid plan talking like this. So I wanna know..." She grumbles a bit, and bites another hunk of pizza off. "Anyways, I didn't come here to change your mind to leave them alone. I am sorry for dismissing your views offhandedly. My Caste's role is supposed to be bringing people together and finding new understandings, so that was a big oopsie."
Staren	Staren blinks. The three words do hit home, and he winces. He looks... surprised when she mentions Lazlo and shows she learned about it, but not flabberghasted or anything. He takes a deep breath. "I suppose you are right. It doesn't suit my values, but if people choose to live as pets, or to cling to doomed ways... That is their choice. But how many truly choose? Are all children educated on the multiverse and given the choice to make for themselves? /Did/ they truly choose it, not the original seedseers but the people alive now, who were raised that way and may never have even questioned it? I prefer societies where people are free to learn such things, because then they are free to /make/ choices. I suppose it gets complicated, and there is nothing more than we can do, but, if worst comes to worst, offer to take those who are willing with us, and simply leave if they are none." He listens through the rest, then takes a deep breath. "Thousand Streams River. I guess that will segue nicely into an explanation of how I view nature. How to put this..." he thinks for a bit.
Finna	Finna finishes her piece of pizza while waiting for Staren and thinking on his words. "oh, but aren't those people free to leave if they want to?" A really simple counterpoint. "It's true. You can't make a choice as a kid. Until you're at least my age or so, you can't even begin to judge what the consequences of your choices might be. So you have to trust your parents, who made THEIR choice to raise you there. Maybe it's not ideal, but it's part of being human. Still, they grow up there, they find something there they treasure and they stay. If there was no value in that life at all... would they NOT go somewhere else? You're right. If there are people who want to leave, nothing should stop them. But they'll feel guilty, because everyone who stays is another pair of hands that might've saved someone had they stayed. You can't be sure which choice is really right... can't it be that both are correct?" She smiles. "I can wait! There's plenty of pizza." she grabs another slice.
Staren	Staren shrugs. "If they're doomed, people staying behind won't help anyone." He shakes his head. "Hopefully, it won't come to that." He takes a moment to eat a slice of pizza in silence. "...Thousand Streams River... wait, no, I'll come back to that in a moment. First, observe that I'm a person. I have certain values, and tend to think that certain traits of people are valuable. Hope, dreams, aspirations, relationships, love, learning, telling stories, playing, teaching, building, helping... As you said, some parts of nature also show some of those traits. And then as I said, not all. So." He leans forward with his arms crossed on the table. "Thousand Streams River. It doesn't just apply to people. You ask what Nature is to me, and there is no better way to look at it. Some streams dry up. Some streams flourish." He sits up straight. "I said before that if you wanted to see what happens when you put someone emotionlessly pursuing a single goal in charge, you should look not at the works of people, but of nature. But in truth, that in itself is making Nature more of a person than it is. Nature doesn't pursue survival. It doesn't /care/. Nature just happens, and the fact that the creatures that survive and reproduce and grow plentiful are the ones that are around, is, tautologically, the reason that certain species and ways of life have survived and are still around. Nature does not care about people. It created people who do care, but not as part of any overarching /goal/." He waves his hand. "No, it simply turns out that people caring about eachother helps them work together, and everything they do is, on the whole, better at helping them survive than at making them die, although it isn't perfect. As you say, some streams flourish and others dry up. I love truth, but some people can't handle the truth. Even in worlds without gods, some people create imaginary gods and follow them -- and when your most advanced technology is fire and pointy sticks, well, the strength and hope even fake faith can give, helps people more than the damage done to their ability to learn the truth harms them. The river fluorishes, therefor the river fluorishes."
Staren	Staren holds his hands palm-up in a shrugging gesture, then rests his hands on his legs, leaning forward slightly."Nature does not learn or care. People could build a far more effective survival machine than themselves, with magic and technology. But they don't. Because that is not what they want either -- people value /people/, and the other values that people have. And people can work with purpose, not to make the ultimate survival machine, but to make the things /they/ value, and to care about the things they care about. And I think that is our purpose, because it is what we are. People who seek a purpose from something external -- not of themselves, other people are important, but outside people entirely -- are missing the point, or at least not recognizing the significance of their own values." Another deep breath, and he lifts his hands to place on the table again, and lean forward slightly more. "And then there are the people who see that Thousand Streams River created them, and they mistake a process, a /rule/, for a guide, or for a being like themselves. To worship it or hold it up as an ideal above their own values..." he shakes his head. "It is as senseless as worshipping gravity, just because the world we know would not exist without it." He sighs. "So. Now that you see how I see it, tell me what virtue you see. The mother fox protects her cubs, but so many other species and forms of life do not. And even the fox seems inferior to the person, because its ability to change its environment is limited. People learn and understand and control. They aren't just made by Thousand Streams River, they can /see/ and /understand/ it, and I believe they can rise /above/ it. So why is it better to follow and revere it?" He tilts his head slightly to the side. Not smiling like he's just laid a victorious knockdown argument. Waiting to hear the piece he's missing, the new side that will make people like Finna /make sense/.
Finna	"Hey. You should show gravity at least a little respect, though yeah, not worship. If everything floated off..." She waves a hand. "Anyways, you're correct that worshipping the process that leads to things isn't productive! The Thousand Streams River is just a way to view how life goes on." It's MORe than that, but Staren will have to use insight to figure out what isn't being said. "Actually, you're wrong. Beavers do control their environment. Do they not build dams? Do foxes not dig dens? ... Well actually they don't. They often steal an existing one, from like a badger or something. In nature's opinion there is no difference, morally, between that thievery and looking after your pups. Well, I've not tried birthing pups so I can't say for sure! But I've watched them a few times. Cute little things." She giggles lightly, but gets serious again pretty fast. "Is there value in doing something just because you can? So they CAN change things... but if they don't want to? From the start, your definition of 'above' is not what they'd call above. To them, rising 'above' just means more prosperity from what they have. It's the same thing as humans building a house, even if it's not as fancy. But doesn't it work? The foxes haven't died out. Using just those simple dens, foraging and hunting for food, they still exist. So it's a success, even if you think it's primitive." She starts munching on her slice, and talking with her mouth half-full. "Buf I ike ish pzza. Fo big..." Gulp, swallow. "Big houses have their own merits too! You wouldn't find this in nature, and it's pretty tasty!"
Staren	Staren chuckles a little at the gravity comment. "Yeah, well... on most worlds, gravity is just a thing that happens. I'm okay with giving the small gods of Creation their due respect, though." He nods his head to the side slightly at the comment about beavers. "It's not the same thing, though. Many species, just by their presense and natural behaviors, alter the environment around them. But the ant building an anthill, and the beaver building a dam, are just following programmed behaviors. Thousand Streams River will eventually give birth to beavers and ants that can build better dams and anthills, but a /single/ human can study several dams, think about the best design, and innovate even better ones, over the scale of years and decades, rather than eons. And that human can do a whole bunch of other stuff too!" Staren nods. "What works is most important, yes. The foxes survive. But I don't just want to /survive/, or I wouldn't bother to do more than live in a den. I want so much more. So I can't worship the fox, and what it has to teach me is at best, a very small piece of what I need to know." Staren blinks. "But, I suppose I can see why some might choose to keep their simple ways. Why mess with what works?" He sighs and shakes his head. "It feels wrong to me, though. Not only do I value more, but... a certain way of looking at the world, unusual even to most humans and other mortals, is written into my brain. When it comes to end goals and reasons to do things, I am driven by emotion and values as any other, but when it comes to determining how to achieve those things, I can think best in terms of logic and reason. Of learning what works and /why/, and how it can be done better. Not in unthinkingly mimicing the ways of my forebears." Staren smiles as he looks at the pizza. "Yes, it /is/ tasty. So, tell me... I seem to have misunderstood you. You don't hold up Thousand Streams River and the fox as ideals. They sound at best like... tools to learn from. Options showing ways to live. What's your deal then, how do you view nature? And what were these 'mistakes' you thought I'd repeat? Or were you just really clumsily trying to get through to me that not everyone wants progress?"
Finna	"Hey, it's not THAT clumsy! Though that's not really the message either." Finna gives Staren a weird, semi-amused and semi-frustrated look. Though frustrated at him? Hard to say. "Hrmngh. How do I view nature... well, to me it's a struggle to prove yourself. The fox mother protects her pups, but not all will make it, will they? One of them will fall into a stream, another will get carried off by a hawk when it's not paying attention. A third will fall prey to disease. It's a bad day for those few pups, but a good day for the hawk, right? If you can survive, that's the same as proving yourself, no matter what happens. You're right though, that humans aren't quite the same as the fox or beaver. For starters, humans have these souls that can think of greater things than just building a home and seeing to our offspring's future. But each of us still has those same things in common with every other living creature, so nobody can deny they're not a part of nature even if they can easily walk all over it. The people I come from? you'd use the word 'barbarian' to describe the Haslanti! We're a tough sort who brave the harshest, bone-chilling winters and worst summers in existence and still prosper. It's always, always, about the community and the future more than it ever is about the present. We hunt, forage, grow, and build.... but are never far away from the life of the woods and the tundra. If nature is a struggle, then there's merit in overcoming that adversity and thriving. If you can do that, and hold your head up high, then you have the right to pursue whatever else you want. But if you can't at least conquer that life head-on, you fail as a person. Well, something like that!"
Staren	Staren munches on pizza as he listens. He nods a little here and then, blinks and stares into space at nothing. "Already? Darn..." He looks to Finna. "Mizuki and Kotone are creating their nodes and want me present. I have to go. I'm glad we had this talk, though, there's just one more thing I want to address. Mind finishing this up on the radio? If not, then we'll meet again soon, maybe even later tonight." He extends a hand to shake, then grabs another piece of pizza and hurries off.