2174/What is Justice

What is Justice
Date of Scene:	06 May 2015
Location:	Heaven or Hell Tower <HoH>
Synopsis:	Nathan and Psyber talk about the definition of justice and punishment, as well as its purpose.
Cast of Characters:	168, 253

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Psyber (253) has posed:
    Time for another lunch visit from Psyber! Today, he's bringing something more normal for Nathan. Just a basic BLT sandwich with some potato chips and an apple juice for the librarian. Psyber, himself, has a big meatball sub he'll be eating later, "Hey Nathan, you around and hungry? My classes wrapped up a bit ago, so I came back. Something we talked about the other day really stuck with me."

Nathan Hall (168) has posed:
    Nathan's at the main desk at the moment, and peers up from his reading. "Oh, Psyber. Come in, come in, come on over here then." He gestures off to the side, slipping his work away and leading back to the same table as before. "Had a late breakfast, bit late, no lunch yet. What's on your mind?" He takes a seat at the table, in those usual slow, very deliberate motions, inviting Psyber to sit across from him, or next to him.

Psyber (253) has posed:
    "Just something you said that put me into thinking about philosophy, meanings of things," Psyber notes as he sits down across from Nathan at the table. He enjoys that spot a bit more than right next to Nathan because it balances proximity with eye contact, "So I wanted to, well, puzzle out my thoughts with you. I guess the core question that I want your opinion on, Nate... 'What is Justice?', would be the best way to phrase it."

Nathan Hall (168) has posed:
    "Not qualified, really, not particularly qualified to answer." Nathan says. "Don't give it much thought, myself, you know. I figured it was your sort of business, it was your... Particular court. Nothing I'd ever know about. Suppose it's just something you know when you see. A criminal does something wrong, and they get punished, and that's justice, or sometimes it isn't. Really just know when you see it. Might need a bit more context though, a little more frame of reference. Justice in what situation?"

Psyber (253) has posed:
    "Well, that's the thing, isn't it?" Psyber asks Nathan curiously, rubbing a hand under his chin as he considers it, "There are so many situations. Justice applies to crime, justice applies to the natural world order, justice even applies to interpersonal interactions. But I guess I would say, in this instance, 'Justice for actions which harm another'. What is Justice in those situations? What should it do?"

Nathan Hall (168) has posed:
    "It should make them regret what they did." Nathan says. He'll go for the sandwich now, probably, intending to take a bite to punctuate what he's thinking. "A crime against another that is not sufficiently regretted will be repeated, always be repeated eventually, because then there's no consequences. It should create regret appropriate to the action, it should make crimes have a negative consequence. Something to form regret." He says, eventually.

Psyber (253) has posed:
    "I see, an interesting definition to have. Allow me to approach an alternate philosophy," Psyber sighs a bit and thinks, "A thought exercise, if you will. There are two identical kingdoms with two different kings. In each Kingdom, a man steals a loaf of bread to feed his family. He is caught and brought before the king to be Judged. In one Kingdom, the king orders the man's hand to be cut off. That man will never thieve again, his victim will be appeased, and Justice is served," Psyber steeples his fingers in front of himself.

Psyber (253) has posed:
    "In the other Kingdom, the King instead orders the thief to work for the man he stole from. To earn a modest wage that he might pay off what he stole, as well as feed his family in the future," Psyber postulates, looking at Nathan over his steepled fingers, "In this situation, the man will still never thieve again. He will, in the hypothetical, live an honest life since all motive to steal has been removed. His family is fed, he is working," Psyber muses on this, "Which King, then, served Justice?"

Nathan Hall (168) has posed:
    After a long pause, thinking and chewing, Nathan looks more directly at Psyber. "These are both a bit extreme. I'd say, I suppose, I'd say the second one served it. First one's a bit of an extreme. Justice is there too, though." He rubs his forehead a bit with a free hand. "People don't empathize just on their own, you know, they don't sympathize just because..." He gestures. "Just because someone tells you about how something hurt you, it doesn't mean anyone really shares it. Some pain and loss, you have to have it sometimes just to bridge the gap. I think both approaches have a bit of validity, sure. Not sure what keeps a man, you know, a man of lesser moral caliber from stealing now that he's got the keys to the victim's business."

Psyber (253) has posed:
    Psyber temples his fingers and then says, "Mm, but in the hypothetical, the man was stealing purely to feed his family. But, based on your extrapolation, you are correct," Psyber nods, "A man of lesser moral, a man who repeated his offenses, that man would deserve punishment. He was given his chance to reform, to rehabilitate, and he did not. He has shown that the kindness is wasted on him."

Psyber (253) has posed:
    "But, if a measure of pain is necessary, if the man in the second example felt emotional pain for his actions. Shame, regret, doubt. Emotions such that he would not repeat his actions again," Psyber looks to Nathan and ponders, "In this scenario, a different sort of punishment was served in his own way."

Nathan Hall (168) has posed:
    "That certainly makes sense." Nathan says, nodding. "However, it assumes a degree of... Insight, it's assuming the court's privy to the same information we are. It's assuming the kings are listening in on this conversation." He makes a plaintive sort of gesture. "Anyone can pretend that they feel a tremendous emotional pain. In fact, many can legitimately feel it, and still continue. I work with many Confederates who do as much. Nine, for example, often grieves, but continues his more murderous tendencies."

Psyber (253) has posed:
    "So then. You will accept this as a form of Justice in the personal sense. In exchange, I will concede that it is an inefficient form of Justice in the larger sense," Psyber makes this careful concession to Nathan, keeping his concession well in line with his personal beliefs, "But you have conceded that, with proper insight, emotional distress and regret... if the acts of kindness generate these, are acceptable."

Psyber (253) has posed:
    "What is Justice, at its core? What is the purpose of it? So much stems from it. Punishment, crimes, actions." He ponders aloud, sighing a bit, "It is easy to confuse Justice and Retribution. To demand Retribution and call it Justice. And while some Justice DOES demand Retribution, and all Retribution should be Just... not all that is Just should involve retribution."

Psyber (253) has posed:
    "I put forward that the purpose of Justice is not to appease the victim, not to inflict pain upon the accused either. I propose the logical assumption that, when all is stripped away and the term is looked at objectively..." Psyber looks seriously at Nathan, "In the clinical observation, Justice's purpose is to create a framework by which an offender does not repeat. Rehabilitation, reformation, and a deeper understanding of your offense. These are what justice is meant to protect and instill. Sometimes this involves a punishment, sometimes this involves a kindness. But I postulate that Justice's most core goal is always to prevent repetition."

Psyber (253) has posed:
    Psyber raises his eyes and looks to Nathan curiously, "I am certainly no Field Marshal Tyrael, but this is what I propose to you."

Nathan Hall (168) has posed:
    "Unfortunately, the king's got no reason to know when the kingdom of hypotheticals comes to an end, nor the terms, really. He doesn't know he's looking at a man filled with regret. As far as anyone but the man knows, he could be just fooling the people around him, you know, could just be trying to get the mercy. Seems like you tried to present the first as flawed and the second as proper. But..." Nathan says, taking a break briefly to drink, and as he does, compose his thoughts.

Psyber (253) has posed:
    Psyber smiles at Nathan, "'And if your right hand causes you to sin, you should cut it from you and cast it aside. It would be better for you to lose it today, than to see it sentence you to Hell'. Matthew Five, Verse Thirty." And then, a moment later, Psyber adds, "'But I tell you, do not respond to the evil man in equal measure. But, should he strike you, turn him the other cheek as well'. Matthew Five, Verse Thirty-Nine," The half-angel gives Nathan a gentle grin, "Neither is flawed. Both are valid, merely different forms of Justice."

Nathan Hall (168) has posed:
    "'Turn the other cheek' was a challenge, not a statement to accept the strike of an evil man." Nathan says. "Given your age, you know that better than anyone." Nathan says, putting his drink down. "But the philosophy. It falls apart, a little, really. It falls apart when you start considering the idea that both kings, both of these judges, would make the same decision if you reduced the moral caliber of the man. In the first kingdom, it'd be right, certainly. In the second kingdom, he's handed the criminal the keys to the bakery, and shown that theft gets you that sort of thing." Nathan gestures with one hand now. "The problem with your hypothetical is that it's designed, really, designed to extoll the virtures of kindness. But the fact is, if the moral caliber is variable, if it can change, then the second king fails his people. The first king, on the other hand - no pun intended - is successful all the time."

Nathan Hall (168) has posed:
    "Humans have varying morality. Humans also have the capacity to lie, you know, to lie a very great deal. Assuming some rash of bakery thefts plagues two kingdoms, not all the thieves have their families in mind. But the first kingdom stops all thieves. The second kingdom rewards a few of the accused who deserve it, sure. The ones that don't are just being enabled, don't you think?" Nathan says, tilting his head at Psyber. "I know. Both have validity, sure. Sure, they both have their place. But regret needs atonement. Proof of the regret, in actions. Not just someone saying how bad they feel."

Psyber (253) has posed:
    "So it does not work for handling a Kingdom to be kind at all times. That King is foolish," Psyber says to Nathan with a serious look on his face. He folds his hands under his chin and watches Nathan, "You cannot run a Kingdom on Kindness and second chances." He gives this point to Nathan, "It is noble, but naive. Let us scale it down, then."

Psyber (253) has posed:
    "Instead of a Kingdom, it will be a group of friends. People closely intimate with one another, who know eachother for years," He begins, thinking over his point. He's leading to it, but he's trying to set it up in a way that will prove his point, since he has learned not to simply come at Nathan on whims, "Their knowledge allows them to make those intimate-level decisions, to know the character of who they are." He muses to Nathan, "Then, in those cases and when applied sparingly and with reservation, do you accept that kindness and forgiveness can be a punishment for sleights against one another? Perhaps not all sleights, perhaps not all transgressions. But some, when you can know that they will not repeat that mistake? When they know that repeating it may lose them this... kindness and understanding in the future?"

Nathan Hall (168) has posed:
    Nathan considers this, taking a few more bites and chewing them thoughtfully. "Sure." Nathan says. "Sure, I can see that working fine. I mean, assuming the sleight's only done once, just the one time. And I suppose, assuming that there's some effort, you know, some effort on the part of the wrongdoer to, well, do right. To atone for the damage done, of their own will, where they don't really have to do any atonement in the first place. And a whole lot of other conditions. Something like that."

Psyber (253) has posed:
    "Then, under those qualifications, Justice has already been served onto you," Psyber says seriously to Nathan, "This is the answer to your question of why you deserve a second chance and why I'm so willing to forgive you," And to forgive Elliana, though Psyber sincerely feels that Nathan should be allowed to make the minor logical leaps that the conclusion to Psyber's argument has tried to steer him towards naturally, "Because we are friends. Because I KNOW you. And because I know it will not happen again if you are given chance to prove this."

Psyber (253) has posed:
    "I think, under those stipulations, that it would be better to see you turn your emotions and your energies, that same drive, towards a noble goal than to see you cut off your emotions out of fear that it may cause you to transgress," He adds quietly, musing upon it, "Justice has been served, has it not?"

Nathan Hall (168) has posed:
    Nathan blinks a few times at Psyber, and looks down at his food. "Not feeling isn't a punishment." He says. "Not like getting your hand cut off, not like things like that. I don't want to cut my emotions out, cut my feelings out of things like this, decisions I make, because it's... Something that will appease victims. It's something that stops this from happening again. Made this mistake twice already. Letting go of the emotions, even a little, even trying to focus them, you know? Focus them on a job like this. It just messes everything up, eventually, it really messes everything up."

Nathan Hall (168) has posed:
    "It's not a punishment. It's just something that needs doing. It needs doing to stop the mistake from happening again. Using emotion, putting emotion to things like this it works for some people. Some people, you know, really good people, whose feelings are righteous and good. Not me, though, doesn't work very well for me. Justice is served, maybe. Maybe. If it is, I've still got an obligation. Have to make sure it doesn't happen again." Nathan says, starting to mutter at the end there as he fusses with his food.

Psyber (253) has posed:
    "The point is, by the definition of Justice which we defined, it has been served to you," Psyber says to Nathan in a slow tone. He takes a heavy sigh and then says, "Even if I don't agree with your method of repenting, I respect it for now. You have chosen your path," Psyber begins, rubbing his hands together. He has to bring this towards a conclusion, but he's not sure he's convinced Nathan enough.

Psyber (253) has posed:
    "So. With all of this said..." Psyber looks down for a moment and then back up at Nathan, "Can you forgive me for my betrayal? For the harm I brought to you?" He asks in an unsure tone, "Or do you believe there is more punishment which I must suffer under, beyond simply the abject horror of having to hurt my best friend in defense of my convictions? Has Justice been done?"

Nathan Hall (168) has posed:
    "...I still wish you'd done otherwise. And it hurt pretty much as much as it can, as muc as anything like that could, practically." Nathan says, still motionlessly staring down at his food. Then he makes a broad gesture with both hands. "But I told you Can't punish you, really. Can't even think about it, really. Thought I could, for a while, after the Shajem. Not really, now." He stares at the table again, and says, "I don't want you punished or suffering. Really would rather just go back to the way things were now."

Psyber (253) has posed:
    "I didn't think there was another option. I believed I had only one choice to save the collaboration. Give them a partial piece to keep them from getting the whole thing," Psyber says somberly, his voice clearly pained to talk about it, "I regret it constantly. It won't... ever happen again. It was more painful to me than anything I've ever done. More painful than Annu." Psyber admits to Nathan, coming clean about his feelings.

Psyber (253) has posed:
    "I think about it constantly. How it hurt you, how I was the breaking point, how I made you afraid of me. When I put my hand on your shoulder and you trembled just from my presence..." Psyber takes a slow breath, confessing this to Nathan, "It was the worst feeling in the world to me. Everything I've done since then, everything I do going forward... it's all to try to stop something like this from ever happening again."

Psyber (253) has posed:
    He lets out a slow exhale and seems to stop to think, "I... I don't want to ever hurt you like that again, Nathan." He just finishes with, leaving it at that, "And while... I have a lot of feelings about Elliana. About the punishment she's faced that no one ever saw but me... I know that it doesn't trump how I feel about the fact I hurt you," He seriously states. Finally, he just says, "Never again."

Nathan Hall (168) has posed:
    "Justice, right? That's your court, that's your field. Not mine. I just want to go back to us working together, doing our jobs. Just doing our jobs again. Being friends, that sort of thing." Nathan says, without too much pause. He's stopped, mostly to respectfully let Psyber speak if he needs to. "I'm not... I don't know. I guess I don't really know how we're gonna be defining forgiveness. I don't want you to hurt more for what you did, I suppose, not really. I want to trust you. I want to go back to how things were. I guess that's all. Hope that's forgiveness, for something like this. You'll know, if anyone does."

Psyber (253) has posed:
    "Mmm. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. That's the other thing about Justice. It's subjective," Psyber confesses to Nathan, looking over at the Librarian, "I can't tell you what to think or how to feel. Eventually, it's going to come to you to decide, in your own heart, if I was punished enough for what I did. Same as everyone who betrayed you, including Elliana and her loneliness and self-loathing," Psyber somberly states, "But for now, I think that what you're describing is pretty close to forgiveness. But if you ever decide I need more punishment, just tell me."

Nathan Hall (168) has posed:
    "I told you. I can't..." Nathan sighs a bit. "I'm not the kind of guy who really, you know, really easily decides that his friends should hurt more. Not... Well. You know. Not normally." He finishes off his sandwich and starts trying to nibble at the chips. "Suppose, I suppose if it comes up, I'll let you know. And, I guess, until then, let's just go back to normal. Go back to the way things were, the way things are supposed to be. Might not run into something like this ever again. That's what I'm hoping, anyway. Hoping."